Say What! A Little Pre-Game Redskins Roundtable

Dad posted an article about Redskins fans bailing on the team, like the industrialists and entrepreneurs that bail on society in Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/25/AR2009102502646.html?referrer=emailarticle

Dan: I still think there's a lot of energy in this "movement" that's kind of a skew, and I can't put my finger on it. In 1998, they started 0-7. In Norv's 5th year. No fan revolt. In 2001 they started 0-5--Did 9/11 preclude people from getting as pissed as they would have otherwise?The 2007 Dolphins went 1-15. They won their division in 2008. The 2007 Atlanta Falcons were a total disaster after their coach quit and Vick got caught. The 2008 Falcons drafted a QB and went to the playoffs.I understand fans being pissed and wanting Cerrato gone or whatever, but the lack of perspective by fans is kind of nonsensical.

Steve: Yeah i read that article. I think the article accurately captured the fans' mood, and that there is some truth to the perception/speculation that fans are jumping off the bandwagon. That said, I don't think the article was particularly insightful; we already know that the Skins suck, and that fans are pissed. I'm not sure what a few anecdotes about fans planning a revolution or abandoning allegiance to the team adds to the debate. show me some empirical evidence, damnit! I want surveys, studies, theses written on the topic.

I do think, however, that this particular fan "mutiny" is more powerful and has more traction than previous mutinies/seasons of despair. And unlike Dan, I think it's justified. This year, for the first time, I feel entirely detached from the Redskins. I can't get excited about anything or anyone on this team. our star players are old and they suck. our "quarterback of the future" is middle-aged by NFL standards, and hasn't improved in 5 seasons. That's remarkable! We squander draft picks to patch up holes, as if we're just a player or two away from being good, when everyone knows that we completely suck. The other executives in the league laugh at our franchise. we are the laughing stock of the league. it's embarrassing. At least during the Norv days - "we just didn't make enough plaaaaaaaaays [voice cracking]" there was a system, players were presumably drafted to fit that system, we made financially responsible decisions, and a core group of young players we were trying to build around. we were mediocre, yes, but the hope for improvement was justified. Now, after 10 years of Dan Snyder's micromanaging, bipolar, egomaniacal, delusional, fiscally irresponsible bullsh*t, people are sick and tired of being made fun of, and want the team to be run by a professional. it's the lack of professionalism and class that irritates fans. even when we win, there's this sense of guilt that we're not winning the right way, and that the winning is not sustainable. even the winning feels like losing. i hate this team. I'm all for the revolt. Viva la France

Dan: Yeah, but why now? Why not after totally collapsing in November and December last season? Was it the August/September article on the Redskins dropping tickets in the secondary market and suing ticket holders that made people say, ok if they pull this shit they better beat the crap out of the Rams?

Steve: It's because, we made all these improvements and we regressed AGAIN and it was all so predictable! this year, there was absolutely no excuse to regress. none. we had a QB in his second year of a system, a coach who had time to adjust to the rigors of NFL, a revamped D-line, and we got considerably worse! again!!!!! it's the repetition that wears on people. that said, yes, I believe that the suing ticket holders thing and the lack of accountability in the front office exacerbated everything. i think people would excuse the losing, and even the sucking, if we had an owner with a scintilla of class, and if we actually believed he had a plan. i analogize it to breach of a fiduciary duty. we put faith in management to make smart decisions that will make our team better, because 1) as mere fans we have no control; and 2) we don't have the time and/or resources to scout players, make personnel decisions, etc. so we leave it to fiduciaries to make those decisions for us. but this duty has been breached, and i honestly think most fans believe they could do as good as or better job than snyder/cerrato in running this team. we're being led by a bunch of clowns, who can't do anything right. they don't treat their fans right, they don't make smart football decisions, and they've tarnished a once proud franchise. also, the drinking at the stadiums doesn't help.

Dad: I think Steve has really hit it on the head. The team is led by cynical exploiters. They have removed any hint of class from our team. From trying to compete with Dallas for whose cheerleaders have the least clothes, to charging $6.00 for a bottle of water (while forbidding fans from bringing their own water -- the water rule REALLY pisses me off; it's such a nickle and dime thing, but speaks volumes about what the owner thinks of his fans), to charging full price for preseason and tying preseason to regular season; to making you up front the money in March $4300) giving him a six month float on your money before you can redeem value in the form of game attendance; and then, on top of all that fan abuse (oh, did I forget suing your own fans) he gives us a dreadful product, that as Steve says, feels lousy even when they win. I rooted for the Mets in 1962 when they were the Amazin Mets who lost 120 games. The fans loved them because the franchise really took care of the fans and made the experience loveable. It's not just the losing. It's the sense that management has no use for its customers. Give us your money and shut up! You are too stupid to know any better. For me, that's what has set me off; the feeling that he is exploiting me and has the attitude that I am so stupid, I'll just keep coming back no matter how bad the abuse gets.

Dan: I suppose its a situation very similar to how an earthquake develops--two plates are constantly grinding against each other, and there's really no real reason for it happening when it happens, but it was bound to happen at some point.

Steve: also, i truly believe that this current mutiny was held in abeyance, but percolating, during Gibbs 2.0. We fans gave Snyder/Cerrato a 3 year reprieve during Gibbs 2.0, because we had so much respect for Gibbs, and even when we completely sucked in 2006, we restrained ourselves from mutiny because we loved and had faith in Gibbs. Now, all of that pent up anger and frustration has been unleashed 10-fold on management, because there's no more Gibbs buffer to protect the Danny.

Dan: Totally right about Gibbs. A lot of people were convinced early on that Gibbs 2.0 didn't have it though. And Gibbs' player choiced were hit and miss. more like hit and BIG MISS.

On my blog I wrote that Gibbs 2.0 is a big reason we have no depth. Case in point. Gibbs and co. had to "win now" in 2006 following the playoff season. Portis gets hurt, so they had to get insurance for him (Duckett) and give up way too much for it, because of "win now.

Steve: exactly.
also, even when we sucked with Spurrier, there wasn't a mutiny because most fans thought he would actually make a decent coach, and other NFL teams at the time were chasing him too. we felt like we had won a prize when we got him, and we thanked the Danny for opening up his pocket book and luring a hot new coach. and when that experiment failed, we hailed the Danny once more for "fixing the problem" with Gibbs. What the fans didn't realize, or pay attention to, was that the personnel decisions between 2001 and 2005 were horrendous. Name one impact player from those drafts. Name one. Here are our drafts from 2000 to 2005. I think Casserly was responsible for 2000, but other than that, who was making these picks????? These picks were TERRIBLE!!!!!!

20051. Carlos Rogers, CB, Auburn (9th overall)1. Jason Campbell, QB, Auburn (25th overall)4. Manuel White, FB, UCLA (120th overall)5. Robert McCune, ILB, Louisville (154th overall)6. Jared Newberry, OLB, Stanford (183rd overall)7. Nehemiah Broughton, FB, The Citadel (222nd overall)

2004 1. Sean Taylor, S, Miami - 5th overall3. Chris Cooley, TE, Utah State - 81st overall5. Mark Wilson, OT, California - 151st overall6. Jim Molinaro, OT, Notre Dame - 180th overall

2003 2 . Taylor Jacobs, WR, Florida - 44th overall3. Derrick Dockery, G, Texas - 81st overall7. Gibran Hamdan, QB, Indiana - 232nd overall

2002 1. Patrick Ramsey, QB, Tulane2. Ladell Betts, RB, Iowa3. Rashad Bauman, CB, Oregon3. Cliff Russell, WR, Utah5. Andre Lott, S, Tennessee5. Robert Royal, TE, LSU6. Reggie Coleman, T, Tennessee7. Jeff Grau, LS, UCLA7. Greg Scott, DE, Hampton7. Rock Cartwright, FB, Kansas St.

2001 1. Rod Gardner, WR, Clemson2. Fred Smoot, CB, Mississippi St.4. Sage Rosenfels, QB, Iowa St.5. Darnerien McCants, WR, Delaware St.6. Mario Monds, DT, Cincinnati2000 1. LaVar Arrington, LB, Penn St.1. Chris Samuels, T, Alabama3. Lloyd Harrison, CB, N.C. State4. Michael Moore, G, Troy St.5. Quincy Sanders, S, UNLV6. Todd Husak, QB, Stanford7. Del Cowsette, DT, Maryland7. Ethan Howell, WR, Oklahoma St.

Dan:

Rogers--good player, who could be great with different hands

Campbell--solid, could be good with offensive line and 80s Gibbs offense.

Taylor--was going to be hall of fame great

Cooley--pro bowlerDockery--you can't say he is a bad pick

Cartwright--pretty good value for 7th rounder

striking out on Wilson and Molinaro really hurt

Steve: OK i overlooked Taylor and Cooley. But those are 2 of 40-some picks, and we only had 40-some picks because we traded them away for the likes of TJ Duckett, Pete Kendall, Jason Taylor, Jeremiah Trotter (right?) Lavaraeneous Coles (right?) Trung Candidate (right?). I disagree with Rogers, and Campbell - rogers is average, we took him too high in the draft, and campbell is a nice guy but sucks at QB.